Working
Class
Left
Journal of the
Beware a second referendum for then you will have to
face a third, and a forth and a fifth, until we leave.
OK so you didn't get the result you wanted, better luck
next time.
That can apply of course to both sides.

In fact it works best for those who want to leave, leave anything, including
leaving the UK, The Scottish nationalists, or separationists it would be fairer
to call them, don't consider the vote to stay in the UK as final and they are
already planning WHEN not IF to have another try, and they will go on trying
until they get the answer they want. In fact the only way for Scotland to stay
in the UK is to KEEP voting to stay, for there is no final say, you cannot bind
anyone to the future, you can't say, 'we vote to stay in the United Kingdom
FOREVER'. You can only say 'Stay until further notice', which can mean
until someone persuades enough people to want to leave.
And that is right, the Scottish people have a right, if only under the United
Nations proclamation on the right to self determination. And morally; it would
be the height of rudeness and unkindness to insist that they stayed if they didn't
want to, or to resent their leaving. If they do leave, it's not the end of the world,
we can still be friends. The rest of the UK also has a right to self
determination. (Hard to see why Nicola Sturgeon is so angry at the UK
wanting that, since that's what she wants too. She is both an angry Remainer
AND an angry Leaver.)

The same applies, both ways, to the EU.  A vote to stay can only be
temporary, it cannot be binding forever. If enough people want to leave we will
leave. In fact that is already the case. But if we were to have another
referendum, before leaving, and change our minds, if we would vote to stay,
that would only be until we have a 3rd referendum and then maybe vote to
leave again. Just as it is with Scotland. It's just a matter of choosing the time
and having another go. And the only way to keep us in would be to KEEP
voting to stay (in fact they haven't achieved that once yet).

As for the vote to leave, well that needn't be more final than a vote to stay, but
it should get its way to the same degree that staying does in Scotland. Scotland
stayed for a while as they voted to stay, but they don't have to stay forever, and
they can try again. Since we have voted to leave the EU we ought to get our
way, until the next one. That means we have to actually leave, as we would
stay if we had voted stay. The referendum cannot be ignored or undone by
another one
until it has had its way. That is for sure. There is a huge
difference between keeping on trying and simply ignoring one result and
accepting another. That would be the same as leaving even though we had
voted to stay. There has to be a gap, say five years, where the decision has its
way. If this sounds ridiculous that is because it is a stretch to try to
accomodate to some degree the idea of ignoring or reversing the referendum
decision, this is where it gets you.  

Ok so its not final, even if we actually leave, we can always ask to join again.
Of course they probably wouldn't have us back so easily and well... there we
have the strength of the leaving position, whether it's Scots leaving the UK or
UK leaving the EU, if you change your mind they might not let you stay/ let
you come back, anyway. So in that way leaving is more inevitable,
unavoidable, than staying. All else being equal. All you can do is oppose it by
voting to hang on, until next time.
And another effect of persistently voting about leaving and discussing leaving,
is that people can hear you, and they get offended (quite unnecessarily really,
and in fact the EU have been a lot more touchy about it than the UK with the
Scots; can anyone imagine the rest of the UK punishing the Scots for leaving?  
Or being as spiteful as the EU are about it?). At any rate, if we mess the EU
around often enough, voting to leave, voting to stay, voting to leave, voting to
stay, they will eventually tire of us and WANT us to leave. Which is another
weakness in the Remain position especially as they strive for a 2nd
referendum. It would likely be followed by a third at some point. And that
would really annoy the EU.
Unless of course they would, after having  a 2nd referendum, and, if they got
the result they wanted, to Remain, then ban referendums. They would have to
really. But the same applies to laws as to referendums, they can always be
overturned, referendums can always be un-banned. You only have to pass a
law. Parliament cannot bind itself for the future, any more than referendums
can.
If you have more than one referendum, it's an update, checking what people
think at present, and if you do that you have to keep doing it at regular
intervals. You either have ONE or you have any number, indefinitely. Two
only is not an option.
This argument only applies to democracies, of course it doesn't apply to the
EU where autocratic actions by the un-elected government are outside the
influence of any parliament (and therefore the people), our own or theirs -
there is nothing in short, we can do about them. The EU has actually banned
referendums. Yes. Banned them, they think they can actually ban democracy
in the nation states. Maybe the remainers would be pleased that democracy
has been banned, once it had served their purpose?).

In fact what's wrong with members of the EU checking with their populations
if they want to belong? Why not? Why does the EU consider it to be such a
crime such a disaster? Is it because they don't like democracy? is it because
they think the people should shut up and do what they're told? But why
shouldn't the Scots check how they feel about the UK every few years? Of
course the EU has now also made laws to actually forbid leaving the EU.
Imagine if we were to do that to the Scots “No you CAN'T leave!” There
would be trouble, quite rightly. Are we to accept being in a superstate that
forbids us to leave, one that doesn't even have an elected government? Lets
hope not.

Does Nicola Sturgeon realise that if we had voted to remain, then the EU
would have been against Scotland leaving the UK. For they made it clear to
her that Scotland on its own would not necessarily be welcome to join the EU,
and therefore the EU would be losing 5 million people. Certainly, for Scotttish
remainers the pressure would be to stay in the UK or face leaving the EU, and
not be let back in.

Roll on the third referendum, or the forth. Eventually we will leave because
the EU is an anti democratic capitalist autocracy without proper elections,
whose government is not elected. That is the reason we will one day have to
leave. And if the far right take over in Europe, as it has done before and as it
never has in this country, then maybe the same people who were screaming
'shame on you' to those who wanted to leave, will then be screaming to leave
themselves.

Anyway, score so far 1-0. And its the last one that counts, until the next one.
And the next one. And the next one.